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As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
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12 years ago
I feel the last thing the growing jQuery community needed at this time was a significant communication and collaboration infrastructure downgrade.
I think the jQuery team talks a good game about "getting involved" but its really apparent, once one tries to do-so, that the collaboration infrastructure is not there (not just Zoho, but docs especially).
Combine one petulant public rant by @jresig with a rushed switch to Zoho without any objective criteria whatsoever, no input, no testing, no parallel operation, plus unilateral bridge-burning proclamations ("I will be closing this forum..."), and you pretty much end-up where we are.
Answering questions and following discussion is currently a nightmare. I cannot imagine answering 100-questions per month on Zoho. I think the jQuery team is going to have a tough-time recruiting and retaining help-at-large until the situation improves drastically, as opposed to improving glacially which would be a generous assessment of Zoho progress since the switch.
Notice something? Those who've so-far said they "love this forum" don't actually partake much beyond that.
Measure it, you'll see.
If you bother to measure the number of questions, number of answers, numbers participating, Q&A lag-time, and so on you will see it. If you don't have metrics, "spectacular failure" is only heard as "spectacular" or whatever you want to hear.
That is all I have to say about this rushed, unilateral and ill-advised switch to Zoho.
**--** Steve
I think the jQuery team talks a good game about "getting involved" but its really apparent, once one tries to do-so, that the collaboration infrastructure is not there (not just Zoho, but docs especially).
Combine one petulant public rant by @jresig with a rushed switch to Zoho without any objective criteria whatsoever, no input, no testing, no parallel operation, plus unilateral bridge-burning proclamations ("I will be closing this forum..."), and you pretty much end-up where we are.
Answering questions and following discussion is currently a nightmare. I cannot imagine answering 100-questions per month on Zoho. I think the jQuery team is going to have a tough-time recruiting and retaining help-at-large until the situation improves drastically, as opposed to improving glacially which would be a generous assessment of Zoho progress since the switch.
Notice something? Those who've so-far said they "love this forum" don't actually partake much beyond that.
Measure it, you'll see.
If you bother to measure the number of questions, number of answers, numbers participating, Q&A lag-time, and so on you will see it. If you don't have metrics, "spectacular failure" is only heard as "spectacular" or whatever you want to hear.
That is all I have to say about this rushed, unilateral and ill-advised switch to Zoho.
**--** Steve
4
Replies(24)
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Sorry Zoho hasn't immediately lived up to your expectations. I know Zoho is trying hard to address problems and constructive suggestions; didn't see any in your post.
You're welcome to continue using the Google Groups jQuery-en area if you want. It's not moderated or monitored by the jQuery team but it continues to operate.
Sorry I can't offer any more to you than that, but I'm currently snowed in and won't have any more troll food until I can get to the store.
You're welcome to continue using the Google Groups jQuery-en area if you want. It's not moderated or monitored by the jQuery team but it continues to operate.
Sorry I can't offer any more to you than that, but I'm currently snowed in and won't have any more troll food until I can get to the store.
Leave a comment on dave.methvin's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Being already familiar with Steve's attitude I didn't expect anything more or less from his post.
For me, Zoho is a lot better than anything that was before. I didn't even try using Google groups because of more or less the same reasons jresig left it behind.
I am not saying that Zoho is perfect, it has it's flaws (most noticeable the "code block" as a whole), but it does work for me and many others as I can see.
Is it me, or do I see a growth of Q&A in number of posts? How could this happen when "Answering questions and following discussion is currently a nightmare"?
-- Aivo --
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Heh. Well, looking at your recent response history you have largely disappeared. Gee, I wonder why that may be?
Q.E.D, possibly?
See, the proof-in-the-eating is: does this forum foster long-term community participation?
I argue no, and the main reason is because it is -- and remains -- a total pain usability-wise.
Q.E.D, possibly?
See, the proof-in-the-eating is: does this forum foster long-term community participation?
I argue no, and the main reason is because it is -- and remains -- a total pain usability-wise.
Leave a comment on aivopaas's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
To Steve (and others like him):
I don't mean to be rude, even though you are, but perhaps the problem is your expectations? These guys are basically working for free. Most of the folks who try to answer questions are working for free. We all have to earn enough to eat and pay our bills, just like you do.
If you don't like the process I'm sure you can find folks who would be more than happy to support your efforts, for a fee. It might be a little pricey, say $120/hour +, but they're out there. In fact, I suspect many of the jQuery insiders would be more than happy to do so. Just ask them!
Is Zoho the best around. Probably not. Is it easiest for them? Absolutely. Do you have ANY right to demand that Resig and the rest do what you want? NONE AT ALL (again, sorry to be rude).
I've been in the software business for more than 30 years. I've paid big bucks for crappy software, with no support. I think the best thing that's happened to this industry is FOSS. jQuery is spectacular. And I, as I'm sure many thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of others are thankful every day that they're around. I would much rather they spend their time enhancing the code rather than supporting folks, many of whom aren't willing to even try to figure out what's going on.
Try and get support from M$, or Oracle, or anyone without paying through the nose for it. And, even then, you'll be talking to some new hire who really doesn't know anything since the only folks they spend real time with are those who spend the most (over $1 million per year).
My suggestion, my friend, is to either dig deeper into the code and learn for yourself (the best solution IMHO) or go pay for someone to help you.
Just to be sure (if you've gotten this far in my response) I'm not a member of the jQuery crew, I don't work or own any part of Zoho or any other FOSS support company. I'm just a lonely programmer, working out of my home, trying to develop Web based applications and find that jQuery, PHP, MySQL and all of the plugins that have been created for those OS projects have made my work possible.
Best of luck to you.
Regards,
Phil Mickelson
Hillsborough, NC
I don't mean to be rude, even though you are, but perhaps the problem is your expectations? These guys are basically working for free. Most of the folks who try to answer questions are working for free. We all have to earn enough to eat and pay our bills, just like you do.
If you don't like the process I'm sure you can find folks who would be more than happy to support your efforts, for a fee. It might be a little pricey, say $120/hour +, but they're out there. In fact, I suspect many of the jQuery insiders would be more than happy to do so. Just ask them!
Is Zoho the best around. Probably not. Is it easiest for them? Absolutely. Do you have ANY right to demand that Resig and the rest do what you want? NONE AT ALL (again, sorry to be rude).
I've been in the software business for more than 30 years. I've paid big bucks for crappy software, with no support. I think the best thing that's happened to this industry is FOSS. jQuery is spectacular. And I, as I'm sure many thousands (if not hundreds of thousands) of others are thankful every day that they're around. I would much rather they spend their time enhancing the code rather than supporting folks, many of whom aren't willing to even try to figure out what's going on.
Try and get support from M$, or Oracle, or anyone without paying through the nose for it. And, even then, you'll be talking to some new hire who really doesn't know anything since the only folks they spend real time with are those who spend the most (over $1 million per year).
My suggestion, my friend, is to either dig deeper into the code and learn for yourself (the best solution IMHO) or go pay for someone to help you.
Just to be sure (if you've gotten this far in my response) I'm not a member of the jQuery crew, I don't work or own any part of Zoho or any other FOSS support company. I'm just a lonely programmer, working out of my home, trying to develop Web based applications and find that jQuery, PHP, MySQL and all of the plugins that have been created for those OS projects have made my work possible.
Best of luck to you.
Regards,
Phil Mickelson
Hillsborough, NC
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Dude, check the record, I *answer* -- well, used to answer -- a lot more questions than I posed. By a ratio of about 50:1.
Leave a comment on csitol's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Sad, very sad...
I'm one of the guys that cheered when the forum was announced, as I personally hated the google groups. yes, I must admit that the slowliness of Zoho sometimes frustrates me as does the "modern" navigation does (would rather prefer a straight forward vBulleting for instance), BUT as already posted in this topic, I firmly believe that Zoho is doing their UTMOST to try and get this forum better on its tracks...
I have found some topics on these boards that made me frown a lot when I see people EXPECTING support for something they didn't even pay a single cent for. It frightens me, as I need to make sure my kids won't end up being the same selfish bastards as those that post such questions...
Very sad, indeed...
To the JQuery team - thanks SO much for an INCREDIBLE product, an INCREDIBLE spirit, an INCREDIBLY GOOD website, and such fantastic support for no cost at all!
I'm one of the guys that cheered when the forum was announced, as I personally hated the google groups. yes, I must admit that the slowliness of Zoho sometimes frustrates me as does the "modern" navigation does (would rather prefer a straight forward vBulleting for instance), BUT as already posted in this topic, I firmly believe that Zoho is doing their UTMOST to try and get this forum better on its tracks...
I have found some topics on these boards that made me frown a lot when I see people EXPECTING support for something they didn't even pay a single cent for. It frightens me, as I need to make sure my kids won't end up being the same selfish bastards as those that post such questions...
Very sad, indeed...
To the JQuery team - thanks SO much for an INCREDIBLE product, an INCREDIBLE spirit, an INCREDIBLY GOOD website, and such fantastic support for no cost at all!
Leave a comment on speedpacket.gmail.com's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
While both sides of the argument have valid points, it's clear that Zoho has gone for eyecandy rather than usability. To say it's 'quirky' would be kind.
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
"quirky" ? no, it is un-usable.
--DBJ
--DBJ
Leave a comment on donb.jquery's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
I'm a avid user of forums and involved heavily the Invision community and coming from a forum background and looking at what zoho is trying to do i do feel it has a bit of a way to go yet. While i think the idea behind the entire zoho group is genius they just need to spend a bit more time on polishing off a few of the features and listen to exactly what the community want. Just to outline some:
I'm sure you'll continue to read these and i appreciate anything you can do to resolve this frustrations
- * change nickname
- * buggy login (forgets user even if set to remember).
- * editor has problems ( funny enuff this list should have bullet points).
- * for the love of god please remove that damn ajax loading thing. in fact having a ajax popup on a page load is completely stupidity. Take it from a community of javascript developers! While your already making a request by loading the page why do you need a loading box in the middle of the page when you already know your loading the page cus your browser is telling you this! Also it goes completely against userbility and using js just cus you can is never a good idea,"less is more?" you should only use js when it enhances the users experiance.
- * No issue marking - theres no way for me to track which issues i've visited and when i come back to see which issues of mine have been replied to, i always see issues in the same order whether i've replied to them or not, this is a extreme failure for a forum software.
- * pagination is issue view.
I'm sure you'll continue to read these and i appreciate anything you can do to resolve this frustrations
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Hi,
Thanks for listing down the issues. We are listening to your comments & are already working on few of the issues that you reported.
Change nickname: As mentioned earlier, we are working on this feature. Expect an update shortly.
editor has problems: We have already rolled out few updates related to editor and few are in pipeline. ( The issue related to the bullet points is due to the custom CSS and not an editor problem. )
ajax loading: We have updated most of the links with niceURLs, thus getting rid of loading image. I expect this issue to completely go away by early next week. Please bear with us till then.
I need your help to nail the following issues:
No issue marking: Can you please elaborate on this? Did you check "My Account"?
pagination: more detail regarding this would be helpful.
pagination: more detail regarding this would be helpful.
Hopefully, we will resolve your frustrations shortly.
--
Rajaram.I
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
editor has problems ( funny enuff this list should have bullet points)
Jaggi - were you not able to use bullets for the post? Did you copy paste the content from some other editor? The reason I ask is because the "bullets" in your post seems to be wrapped in some kind of "span" tags that prevent the browser's bullets from appearing. Copy pasting this into other popular editors like Gmail editor, GDocs editor or Writer all seem to have similar inability to format the points into bullets (however, converting them into a ordered list works everywhere - including this editor).
Leave a comment on Jaggi's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
There is a difference however when you say there is lots of areas to improve, or just attack the jQuery team and say they made the worst decision ever.
I too believe the boards have a long way to go, and to some degree I even agree that Zoho is more about the looks and the web x.0 look than it is about usability, but I get very angry when people attack other people that are doing all of this for... FREE!!!
Sometimes I can not believe what the world has turned into the past few years :(
Leave a comment on speedpacket.gmail.com's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Just wanted to pop in here to say that Steve and I had a great talk off-forum.
We discussed some of the challenges of the platform as well as how the jQuery project can best communicate to its developer base. I've shared the actionable points from our talk with the rest of the jQuery team.
We definitely have some work to do to get the forum working well for both people asking for support as well as people providing. There are a lot of the things on the list, but we're working to prioritize and execute on them.
As everyone can see Rajaram and Zoho are committed to improving this platform and as long as everyone can clearly indicate the problems, I'm sure we'll be in a better place. Already we've seen quite a bit improvement since pre-launch.
Thanks all.
Paul
jQuery Developer Relations
Leave a comment on paulirish's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
@rajaram- Thanks for taking the time to read and reply to this topic. To eleborate more:
issue marking - this basically is usually a little icon on the side of topics that will take you to the latest post in that topic since your last visit. This way your always reading new content not trawling through old content trying to figure out where you've last read upto. There should also be a slightly modified version of this icon for topics that i may have replied to already, this way i can track quickly which i've replied to, i know you can do this from your profile but this little addition can greatly add to the user experiance and it'd bring in line with how all other bulletin boards work.
pagination - this is simply the fancy way of saying pages/ or page numbers. Basically long topics should broken into maybe about 20/25 posts and at the bottom should a pagination e.g. 1, 2, 3 which takes to to the next page with the next batch of posts. Meaning you don't have endless scrolling topics.
I really look forward to see the death of the ajax loading :D.
issue marking - this basically is usually a little icon on the side of topics that will take you to the latest post in that topic since your last visit. This way your always reading new content not trawling through old content trying to figure out where you've last read upto. There should also be a slightly modified version of this icon for topics that i may have replied to already, this way i can track quickly which i've replied to, i know you can do this from your profile but this little addition can greatly add to the user experiance and it'd bring in line with how all other bulletin boards work.
pagination - this is simply the fancy way of saying pages/ or page numbers. Basically long topics should broken into maybe about 20/25 posts and at the bottom should a pagination e.g. 1, 2, 3 which takes to to the next page with the next batch of posts. Meaning you don't have endless scrolling topics.
I really look forward to see the death of the ajax loading :D.
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
At the bottom of this page it says : " .... Sponsored by ZOHO and others..."
Which makes it a bit tricky for jeresig et.all to write what they think about ZOHO software.
Well, such is FOSS life.
Can we please at least, have an editor which is at least on par with the gmail one, and perhaps non-jerky scrolling and normal cursor movement in Chrome.
Well, I said "please", did I...
--DBJ
Which makes it a bit tricky for jeresig et.all to write what they think about ZOHO software.
Well, such is FOSS life.
Can we please at least, have an editor which is at least on par with the gmail one, and perhaps non-jerky scrolling and normal cursor movement in Chrome.
Well, I said "please", did I...
--DBJ
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Dear DBJ,
If it is possible for you, I would like to have a web conference, understand the core issues around the editor (from your perspective), so that we can work further on it and improve it.
And yes - thanks for the "please" :)
Regards
Dhan
Leave a comment on Jaggi's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
As a personal policy, I tend to skip Google groups because I find them unusable. So when I first needed jQuery support I was happy to find a nice conventional third-party forum with quite activity. Later, it was advertised that the forum was to become the official jQuery forum and I thought it was great news. But I never thought that "become" actually meant removing the forum and importing its archive into another place. It feels like when a big company buys a competitor to steal its customers and drop its service.
I understand this is a (great) open source project, nobody's doing money from it (let apart Resig
) and it's not pleasant at all to put such a great effort just to receive complaints. But you must understand as well that the community goes beyond the core developers. Getting prompt peer support adds many levels of satisfaction to a piece of software.
To sum up... You all relax and take it easy. And fix all damn bugs ASAP!
P.S. I found one more issue while typing this: if you switch tabs in Firefox while you're composing a reply you sometimes find that the tab with the editor has scrolled to top.
I understand this is a (great) open source project, nobody's doing money from it (let apart Resig
) and it's not pleasant at all to put such a great effort just to receive complaints. But you must understand as well that the community goes beyond the core developers. Getting prompt peer support adds many levels of satisfaction to a piece of software.To sum up... You all relax and take it easy. And fix all damn bugs ASAP!
P.S. I found one more issue while typing this: if you switch tabs in Firefox while you're composing a reply you sometimes find that the tab with the editor has scrolled to top.
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
@dhan : how comes there is no "Comment" icon in the lower right corner of your post ?
I was partially unable and partially discouraged (by its usability) to visit this forum in last two weeks.
We can have a web conference, yes, but my message is very simple and very easy to understand by the way of familiar examples: make the editor as usable as gmail editor. nothing more than that. That is very simple editor, way simpler than standard WordPress offering, for example. Something like the current stackoverflow.com editor would be quite enough.
And also please fix all the numerous bugs mentioned in this thread and in this part of the forum.
Regards--DBJ
I was partially unable and partially discouraged (by its usability) to visit this forum in last two weeks.
We can have a web conference, yes, but my message is very simple and very easy to understand by the way of familiar examples: make the editor as usable as gmail editor. nothing more than that. That is very simple editor, way simpler than standard WordPress offering, for example. Something like the current stackoverflow.com editor would be quite enough.
And also please fix all the numerous bugs mentioned in this thread and in this part of the forum.
Regards--DBJ
Re: Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
Hi,
I would like to let you know that we are working on enhancing the editor. Please bear with us for another week. Hope you will have a better experience then.
how comes there is no "Comment" icon in the lower right corner of your post
As of now, multi level thread is not supported.
please fix all the numerous bugs mentioned in this thread and in this part of the forum
We are listening to your comments. We are actively working on the issues reported in this part of the forum & there has been constant updates. Hope we get rid of all the reported issues shortly.
Thanks for your understanding.
--
Rajaram.I
Leave a comment on kAlvaro's reply
Server Ceritifacte does not match (still)
12 years ago
@Rajaram : OK
But , also (please) fix this :
"... The server's name "wms.jquery.com" does not match the certificate's name "*.zoho.com". Somebody may be trying to eavesdrop on you..."
I think we have been making a noise about this since this forum is opened ...
Thanks: --DBJ
Thanks: --DBJ
Re: Server Ceritifacte does not match (still)
12 years ago
@Rajaram
Corect me if I am wrong but editor is improved. Not yer there, but that is the right direction to take.
BTW: I am wondering why is it so difficult to make editor have "html (or source) editing" tab (or mode) ?
--DBJ
Corect me if I am wrong but editor is improved. Not yer there, but that is the right direction to take.
BTW: I am wondering why is it so difficult to make editor have "html (or source) editing" tab (or mode) ?
--DBJ
Re: Server Ceritifacte does not match (still)
12 years ago
@DBJ
Thanks for your patience. Expect an much better editor in a week or two and this time with "HTML editing".
--
Rajaram.I
Re: Server Ceritifacte does not match (still)
12 years ago
@DBJ:
The new editor has been updated. hope you have a better experience now.
--
Rajaram.I
Leave a comment on dbjdbj's reply
Re: As always, the proof is in the eating (Zoho)
12 years ago
@Raj ... I thanked you , in some other thread already yes ?
BTW: now when we can go "behind the scene" with HTML view, one can not help but wonder on the source of all the HTML 'moss' that gets into the posts, when doing copy/paste from elsewhere ?
I , have also noticed you guys do not use <p></p> but <br/> 's for paragrpah-ing ?
--DBJ
BTW: now when we can go "behind the scene" with HTML view, one can not help but wonder on the source of all the HTML 'moss' that gets into the posts, when doing copy/paste from elsewhere ?
I , have also noticed you guys do not use <p></p> but <br/> 's for paragrpah-ing ?
--DBJ
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